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| Author | Topic: Supplementary amino acids to gain weight |
| herbocharged 05-13-2003 04:55 PM | Is this product OK to obtain amino acids from? http://www.jomarlabs.com/main/catalog.asp?featureid=1047 Wai, On another thread you said amino-acids came in glass capsules. Do you mean crystalline when you say glass? |
| herbocharged 05-14-2003 10:13 AM | Here is a decent reference to the different types of amino acids. http://www.bodyandfitness.com/Information/Fitness/aminochart_b.htm Most of the free form products that I have seen contain whey protein hydrolysate, which gives me the impression that this is water based(hydro). Is this correct? I am giving Jo Mar Labs a call today to find out how they obtain there acids |
| RRM 05-15-2003 03:20 PM | Please read this saved thread from the old forum : http://www.3.waisays.com/SuppAminoAcids.htm The protein quality of total protein in a product containing amino acids, can be determined by comparing it to human amino acid requirements, which are listed at http://www.13.waisays.com/protein.htm, in the "Weakest Link" paragraph. quote:The ones I was using really came in glass tubes, but I guess crystalline is equally good. quote:No, is is called a hydrolysate because that protein has underwent hydrolysis, which means that the protein has been damaged. Hydrolysis is a "chemical reaction of a compound with water, usually resulting in the formation of one or more new compounds." "The reaction of cations or anion or both with water in which pH of water is changed" And when protein has been damaged, it's protein quality is decreased. RRM |
| herbocharged 05-15-2003 03:59 PM | Thanks RRM I called Jo Mar and they said that they extract there amino acids from vegetables and others are made chemically. The product is a powder in crystalline form, therefore I am assuming that these will easily digest into my system after intense exercise, no? |
| herbocharged 05-15-2003 05:11 PM | http://www.nutramed.com/alphaaax/index.htm I have found this site as well. They claim that they use pure free form amino acids instead of hydrolysates. |
| herbocharged 05-15-2003 05:15 PM | http://www.nutramed.com/alphaaax/aaxingredients.htm The complete protein profile in their product: Nutrient Values in milligrams of each amino acid per 10 grams of AAX. mg/10gm l-alanine 399 l-arginine 747 l-aspartic acid 747 l-cystine 120 l-glutamic acid 249 l-glutamine 598 l-glycine 1246 l-histidine 265 l-isoleucine 598 l-leucine 797 l-lysine HCl 747 l-methionine 448 l-phenylalanine 747 l-proline 448 l-serine 299 l-threonine 399 l-tryptophan 149 l-tyrosine 498 l-valine 498 |
| Wai 05-18-2003 12:33 PM | quote:yes, but you know that this is only one aspect do you know what its actual amino acid composition is? (the one from Jo mar labs) quote:its protein quality is quite good; better than that of beef, for example and since it are real free amino acids, not from hydrolized protein, it seems a fine product to me |
| herbocharged 05-19-2003 03:07 PM | Here is the Amino Acid Breakdown for the Jo Mar Labs Product in mg/10g. Wai or RRM, could you juxtapose the amino acid profile of these two products for me. Alanine 5.1% 500mg Arginine 10.1% 1020mg Aspartic Acid 1.0% 100mg Cysteine HCL 1.0% 100mg Glutaminic Acid 16.2% 1600mg Histidine 8.1% 800mg Isoleucine 1.0% 100mg Lycine HCL 16.2% 1600mg Methionine 1.0% 100mg Phenylaline 1.0% 100mg Proline 1.0% 100mg Serine 1.0% 100mg Taurine 3.0% 300mg Threonine 5.1% 500mg Tyrosine 5.1% 500mg Valine 1.0% 100mg I noticed that it doesn't contain tryptophan and has lower amounts some of the essential AA's(methionine). But higher amounts of others (Lysine). I don't have a good enough grasp of how important non essential AA's work to understand whether higher amounts of these can compensate for the essential. I know the essentials can form non-essentials, but I don't understand whether or not essentials can be reduced if non-essentials are present. Similar to methionine being used to form cysteine. |
| herbocharged 05-19-2003 03:11 PM | Somehow I missed these four. Cystine 1.0% 100mg Glutamine 3.0% 300mg Glycine 16.1% 1600mg Leucine 3.0% 300mg Thanks for all your help. |
| RRM 05-22-2003 08:01 AM | Hey Herbocharged, Comparing the amino acid profiles, it appears that the Nutramed product is almost 3 times as effective as the Jo Mar Labs product. quote:Well, it is quite simple: Only methionine can be converted into cystein / cystine (and not the other way around), and can phenylalanine be converted into tyrosine (and not the other way around). Regarding all the other ones: non of the non-essential ones (or other essential ones, such as Lysine) can be converted into essential amino acids. But, a lower tryptophan level is not a problem at all (regarding body-building), since this amino acid is merely required to be converted into serotonine. About 200 to 300 mg tryptophan is essential, but you don't need extra for bodybuilding purposes. You may need a bit extra though, because you will need extra vitamin B3, which is also made from tryptophan. (On the other hand, you will ingest more B3, because you will need more energy, and thus eat more) This diet already supplies you with all the tryptophan you need. RRM |
| jay_1 05-27-2003 05:26 PM | RRM, So are you saying that these supplements will have little impact if trying to gain weight? Has anyone experimented with these supplements? If I did start to include these supplements(nutramed)into my diet, what good would it do? Thank You. |
| herbocharged 05-29-2003 11:03 AM | You need calories to gain weight. 2000 Calories/pound of muscle 3500 Calories/pound of fat If you do not eat enough to match the calories you burn you can not put on muscle mass, but you can burn fat. The reason I am supplementing is not to gain weight. Rather, I am trying to recover faster in order to increase the effective training that I can get done so that I can push to higher intensities. If you want to get big though, do weight work with less intensity/frequency. Eat food in excess of what you expend in energy. You can do that the way Wai says, drink fresh squeezed juices with olive oil and sugar aided. |
| RRM 05-30-2003 07:06 AM | Jay,quote:They may help a lot if you want to gain weight, but they are not essential. If you consume little high-protein quality foods, or little protein generla, the extra amino acids certainly help. If you find it very hard to ingest enough energy, energy drinks will be a help. quote:I have used free amino acids when I was still experimenting with diet; in the 3 months that I only consumed apples, sugar, oil, and the liquid free amino acids. That way, I didn't have to consume protein, and ingested the required amino acids anyway. Now, I don't need them anymore, because I eat fresh raw fish daily. (and I can currently eat quite some fresh raw salmon daily) quote:You would only need them if your skin does not allow you to eat enough protein. Do you eat fish or egg yolks daily? |
| Taylor 06-01-2003 09:06 AM | Wai, when you say liquid free amino acids, do you mean liquid free? or do you mean free amino acids in a liquid form. Sorry, I'm a bit confused. |
| RRM 06-01-2003 09:11 AM | Taylor, Free amino acids in a liquid form. They come in glass tubes or ordinary capsules. The contents of that tube / capsule should be liquid (and acid tasting). when you find (on the web) a brand you think that suits you, let us know, so that Wai or I can take a look at it. RRM . |
| Taylor 06-01-2003 12:59 PM | Thanks for the reply but I'm still confused. You said to get free amino acids in a LIQUID form but both the products above (The Jomar and the Nutramed are both in POWDER form). So these are NOT okay? |
| Wai 06-06-2003 11:00 AM | indeed, they are not okay regarding acne and even for those that are not at risk for acne, the liquid ones are better because they are more effectively absorbed, and not damaged (only in an acid liquid they can be truly free) |
| jay_1 06-07-2003 01:06 AM | Wai wrote regarding the Nutramed: quote:Oh no, I was under the impression that the nutramed supplements were O.K. I already bought it and have been using it for the past week--on and off. So I guess I better stop now. RRM wrote: quote:Which free amino acids were you using? Did they make you break out? I will be on a ship for a week and I will not have access to fresh eggs. What would you recommend that I consume in place of eggs or even fish? Nuts also aren't an option they make me break out. |
| RRM 06-07-2003 01:11 PM | The Nutramed is relatively okay, but LIQUID free amino acids are better. How did your skin react to the Nutramed? quote:All protein supplements made me break out, except for liquid free amino acids. I used during 3 months while I was experimenting. At that time I consumed only apples, extra virgin olive oil, lots of sugar and those liquid free amino acids. I had severe cystic acne, but during those 3 months, my skin was clearer than I have EVER seen ANY skin. It was smoother and softer than the skin of any female I had ever touched or seen. (no exaggerations) The amino acids I used at that time were from Solgar, and came in glass tubes (about 2 inches long). They tasted really incredibly awful, and the protein quality was poor (regarding essential amino acid composition), so I supplemented with liquid free methionine and phenylalanine (I don't remember what brand; I changed brands a few times) quote:I would recommend liquid free amino acids, DEFINITELY. Please let us have them check out here before you buy. RRM |
| jay_1 06-07-2003 02:57 PM | quote:Well, i dont think it reacted very good. The thing is, at the same time I started using the nutramed, I also started to use the sauna and working out. So I am not sure if it was the sweating from the sauna/training causing new bumps or the supplements. Speaking of suana use, which is suggested not to use: steam sauna, or dry sauna, or are they both O.K.? Another thing, where would I find Free Amino Acids in liquid form? I dont know where to begin. Thank you for your help. By the way, is their any way I could make a cash contribution for all your efforts. You help so many people, I try to help out by answering the more basic questions people ask. I would still like to make a cash contribution, it won't be much, it would at least pay for a couple of hours of your time. Thank You. |
| RRM 06-10-2003 03:43 PM | quote:That is what I suspected. quote:They don't cause acne! quote:Oh, well, there are lots of them. Please submit "free amino acids" to a seacrh engine, such as google. But, be careful, because they now also add hydrolysates to luiquid solutions. What you need, are the free amino acids only; no protein hydrolysates, and these free amino acids need to come in an acidic liquid solution, in an ampule or capsule. Just start presenting a product you seem suitable, and I will comment. quote:I'm sorry, but we cannot accept money. Thank you! ![[Smile]](../smile.gif) quote:Yes, we noticed, and we are very grateful for that! THAT is the help we need! We need people helping others, so that we may have more spare time; the more people help, the greater it would be for us. And we already get a lot of help, from people that installed this board for us, people that help to translate pages, that created the nutrient calculator etc. RRM |
| Peter 06-11-2003 04:49 AM | Hi RRM, we often use aminoacids in our research laboratory and they always come in a crystalline form and are certainly also free amino acids. So i really wonder whats the difference between aminoacids already solved in a liquid and those which are crystalline regarding acne. We always order our aminoacids from www.sigmaaldrich.com, a lot of information can be found there, especially on the "certificate of analysis" page for each aminoacid. Peter |
| RRM 06-11-2003 02:58 PM | Hi Peter, Thank you for posting here. I've tried all types of supplementary amino acids, and the only ones that do not cause ANY acne (in me, and in many others), are the ones disolved in an acid solution that keeps them free, instead of being bound in whatever 'configuration'. The difference between free and 'bound-free' is that with the latter, part of these ammino acids need to be 'set free' by MOAs after having been absorbed into the blood. And if that doesn't happen very swiftly and completely, the remaining ones may get transported to the true skin, where they may cause some water retention, which results in the pinching off of sebum canals (due to the increased water pressure), resulting in acne (if much sebum is produced). Hey, maybe there is some bussiness for you guys in this; if you can supply liquid amino acids to acne patients here, that doesn't make them break out, we can advise your product to other acne patients that want to gain weight. (no financial deals) RRM |
| banned 06-11-2003 03:05 PM | I jsut bought Amino Acid fuel(Liquid Free amino acids) for 26 buck. OMG it is the worst tasting thing I have ever had in 16 years of life. I can't take them by themselves , I have to mask it with orange juice but even still, I have nearly gagged. THey are sooo disgusting. THink raisin concentrate tiems 60000000000, and leaving a terrible after taste. I can't even smell it they're so bad. But if this is what it takes to get rid of acne, bottoms up! |
| RRM 06-11-2003 03:09 PM | Yes, they are definitely the worst that you have ever tasted. BTW, let me make this clear: the supplementary liquid free amino acids do NOT RID acne. All they do, is NOT CAUSE any acne at all, while all proteinacous cooked foods and protein supplements very well cause acne in most of us. So, if you are following this strict anti acne diet, and succeed in clearing your skin, THEN the supplementary liquid free amino acids are a great help to ingest more protein without the risk of breaking out, so that you can gain muscle weight safely. But yes it takes a lot of determination to swallow those suckers! RRM |
| Peter 06-12-2003 02:22 AM | quote:Ok, but based on this experience, you must advise to take solved aminoacids, not "free", because the crystalline form is 100% also free. Could it be that you reacted to some other ingredient, such as magnesium stearate which if often added to crystalline AS? quote:What are MOAs (did you mean MAOs)? quote:Sorry to disappoint you, but we are working for the university and are using aminoacids in immunological studies (not nutrition), but from my own experience i go well with crystalline methionine and cysteine (www.vitaviva.com; magnesium stearate is added). |
| Peter 06-12-2003 02:24 AM | Sorry RRM, i didnt get this quoting thing. |
| RRM 06-12-2003 04:05 AM | quote:We advise liquid free amino acids, but maybe solved is a better description, indeed. quote:No, I have also experimented with the different additives. quote:Yes. quote:Do/did you have acne? The susceptibility to acne is individually very different, so, just as some can eat far more 'munch food', some may be able to cope with the crystalline form. But we can only advise the solved/liquid free amino acids as being totally safe. quote:I've corrected it for you. RRM |
| banned 06-13-2003 02:22 PM | free amino acid in liquid form is the worst tasting thing I have ever had in 16 years. USe it only if you can't eat raw stuff. Its my last resort and it is the worst tasting thing ever. I have to mix it with orange juice, is that harmful, will it break it down some? Is therre something else I can mix it with? |
| RRM 06-13-2003 02:25 PM | Banned, There was no reason to make that post of yours a new thread, so I moved it to here. Please don't do that again; please post in the approriate threads. You can perfectly mix it with OJ etc. No problem. (The juice also contains free amino acids by nature) RRM . |
| banned 06-14-2003 09:54 AM | GOSH DANG IT!!!!! The liquid Amino Fuel has Hydrolystates in it. GAAAH. I almot wretched for like 4 days in a row just so I could cause more acne. WEll back to the health foods store with 25$ less in my pocket. IS it absolutely essential there are no like "Egg White Hydrolystates" in it? I mean this stuff was really expensive. CAn the Free Amino Acid stuff even be bought in a store? I don't have access to a credit card so I do need to buy them in a store in my area. |
| banned 06-19-2003 01:22 PM | Okay I'm taking AMino Fuel, it has hydrosytlates in them, is taking this worse then no protein? I have no fresh eggs and no way to get them and no fresh raw fish. Is taking this upposedly "bad" protein worse then having hno protein? What if all the bad protein is used up then there won't be anything left. |
| RRM 06-19-2003 02:13 PM | quote:Regarding acne? Yes. quote:Yes, in stores for bodybuilders. quote:No protein is impossible. Regarding acne, depending on individual susceptibility, too little protein and hydrolysates may be equally bad. But, consuming too little protein is eventually always worse, because it keeps you from maintaining this diet. quote:It is used up the last, because it is hardest to degrade. In the meantime, it may cause acne. RRM |