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| Author | Topic: B12 sources |
| Achig 12-13-2002 09:06 PM | For my first post I want to mention something I read on a vegetarian board today and thought was interesting, but have no idea how true it is. I have read yeast and some bacteria have B12, and so someone writes that some very ripe fruit(s) develop bacteria that contain B12. It is just interesting to consider and learn more about. We do need some animal products, it appears, for a healthy diet, but it is nice to find that fruits or nonmeat foods can supply more than we think. |
| RRM 12-16-2002 02:10 PM | Welcome to the board Achig! Yes, certain bacteria and moulds produce vitamin B12, and they CAN be present on fruits (or in the feces of small insects or worms on poorly washed fruits / vegetables) But, the question is whether that will supply you with sufficient B12. But, yes, it's a very interesting subject indeed! RRM |
| Achig 12-18-2002 06:49 PM | Thank you RRM ![[Smile]](../smile.gif) You stimulated me to do somereading, and I found some excellent writings about B12. It appears the bacteria and other little creatures are the producers and source for all the higher animals. Another interesting thing mentioned was that meat eaters tend to not absorb B12 as well, making deficiency as common, or more, for them than as for vegetarians who have much less in their diet. How much B12 we need or benefit from seems to be a more ongoing question being considered. |
| Wai 12-19-2002 07:30 AM | quote:That is because the body tries not to absorb too much; the more B12 (or any other vitamin / mineral) your diet contains, the lower the absorption rate will be (aside deficiences), simply to prevent excess. This is a well known manifestation, but generally misinterpret; it does not make you deficient, but shows that the RDA is wrong. Just like absorbing less iron, leading to a decreased blood iron level, is generally diagnosed as anaemia, while iron is pro-oxidative, and sometimes the body prefers to maintain a lower blood iron level, when it has to deal with a high level of other pro-oxidative susbtances for example, or a virus. We are often focussing on the RDAs too much, while the actually required levels / intakes are different per person, situation, time of the year, etc. etc. etc. It appears that vegans can survive on very low B12 intakes, which proves that the B12 RDA is way too high, and thus the meat-eaters are NOT vitamin B12 deficient; the human body needs very little B12. In meat eaters, the body lowers the B12 absorption rate to prevent excess B12. Another example: this diet is very high in vitamin C, and therefore the vitamin C absorption rate is VERY low, in order to prevent excess vitamin C. |
| engesongwok 02-23-2003 05:42 PM | There is a fruitarian website which claims that fruitarian vitamin B-12 is in the form of hydroxylcobalamin. The animal form is claimed to be cyanocobalamin. Hydroxylcobalamin is supposed to be absorbed more and used more effectively by the body. The site doesn't give any supportive reference to support this claim. Does anyone know about this claim? I speculate about soil conditions and the production of B-12. Perhaps soils which are disturbed the least might contain better populations of microbes to produce b-12? Is it possible that plants can uptake vitamins from the soil along with water, minerals and other compounds? What about the use of organic fertilizers? When people worry about B-12, could it be that perhaps most farming is too destructive for optimum health? Further it claims that the red blood cell count of fruitarians and vegans are supposed to be better than people eating a standard meat/potato diet. |
| Wai 02-27-2003 11:46 AM | quote:There are different forms of vitamin B12 (cobalamine) and hydroxycobalamin (just as cyanocobalamin, adenosylcobalamin and methylcobalamin) is one of them (and an antidote for cyanide). Taken as a supplement, it effectively eliminates a vitamin B12 deficiency. No scientific study has showed the presence of any form of vitamin B12 in fruits... quote:as long as NO vitamin B12 has been found in fruits, this all remains speculation indeed... as far as i'm concerned, speculation only would start to make sense if some (no matter how little) B12 was ever found in any fruit... (THEN it makes sense to discuss about how to INCREASE that amount) quote:actually, the opposite is true... |
| engesongwok 02-27-2003 01:49 PM | Ok, please explain more about the blood cell count of meat and potato eaters, verses those on other diets. Is a higher red blood cell count bad? A number of friends are concerned that I have a fruit centered diet, even if it includes egg yolk and raw fish on occation. They think that I need cooked food daily in the form of grain, potatoes, roasted meats, dairy and perhaps some beans and soy products...Sounds like the traditional 'balanced diet'. I don't agree. But they actually expect me to loose consciousness one day from a lack of red blood cells. (From a lack of adaquate protein and complex carbohydrates from cooked animal foods and grain) |
| RRM 02-28-2003 07:49 AM | quote:I think that Wai was only saying that the blood cell count of vegans / fruitarians is worse than that of people on non-vegan / fruitarian diets (cooked or not), because fruitarians / vegans lack animal food. quote:Consuming animal food "on occation" may not be enough. You need to eat animal food regularly, best daily. (It doesn't need to be much) quote:Then they need to explain to you for what nutrient specifically you need each specific food mentioned. Yes, you need animal food, but grains, potatoes and dairy (and beans and soy) contain nothing that fruits and fresh raw animal food cannot sufficiently supply you with. quote:Well, you need to make sure to consume sufficient animal food, but, when eating sufficient fruits, you cannot lack carbohydrates. You only need carbs to obtain the simple elements glucose and fructose from, which are present in fruits. |
| engesongwok 02-28-2003 02:29 PM | Sorry for the grammar problems. What I tried to express is that I eat raw fish on occasion. (about once a week..usually quite abundant at that, 25 pieces of sashami) I eat egg yolks daily. 4 Daily is minium, 6 average and 8 or 9 when I really crave them. I sometimes worry that I am eating too much cholestrol when I do this. But someone has said on this website that it only really matters if you consume damaged protein and cholestrol. |
| engesongwok 02-28-2003 02:38 PM | That is a good point. I suppose that I should ask critics what specifically they think I am missing. Calcium is what is usually mentioned in relationship to dairy. But the other items(cooked meat, grains, veggies)...well, I haven't heard anyone mention any particular nutrient. Only that THEY KNOW that everyone should be eating it, because its part of the governments recommendations for good health. Its also what has been part of the traditional dietary habits for a lot of people. I like what I am eating, and I think you all are doing a fantastic job of presenting information. I sometimes feel pretty isolated, and sometimes harmed socially. Even if I just reject an item without talking about it. Its sometimes difficult that I am not percieved as being 'normal', social outings to resturants and being entertained at peoples homes often creates the most conflict and brings on the most criticisms...and it sometimes makes me doubt what I am doing. |
| engesongwok 04-08-2003 11:16 PM | What about insects, insect eggs or insect parts or products that could be contained within fruit? A fruitarian website stated that b-12 was found in fruit, but not confirmed. I think its possible, as even the best foods in the world are 'contaminated' with insects or other animals which aren't detected. A lot of people don't want to think about it, but I think it could actually make fruit or nuts better for you. Containing vitamins, minerals, lipids, cholestrol and amino acids. |
| Ian 04-10-2003 04:23 AM | And, as long as we're taking heed of evolutionary considerations, apes do eat insects. Cheers, Ian |
| engesongwok 04-13-2003 06:24 PM | What are you trying to say? |
| Ian 04-14-2003 08:05 PM | It seems like a relevant piece of information. For example, when did we behaviorally stop eating insects, and can we still digest them properly? If we can, perhaps insects did comprise part of our protein (and overall nutrition) intake. Thus the most attractive fruit (and one that reproduces well as humans spread its seed) would be "infested" with insects. Food for thought, so to speak. Cheers, Ian |
| Ian 04-14-2003 08:13 PM | Ok, so I did a little bit web-research. Apparently bugs are part of the diets of quite a few cultures. Here's a general guideline of what to eat: "Red, orange or yellow, forego this fellow; black, green or brown, go ahead and toss them down." (cite). ![[Razz]](../tongue.gif) I'm starting to get a bit grossed out now. Cheers, Ian . THIS THREAD CONTAINS MORE THAN ONE PAGE >>> |
| engesongwok 05-11-2003 11:10 PM | While I was in Korea, I tried silkworm pupae. It was quite an experience, rather mind altering. They reminded me a bit of deer meat, having a kind of wild taste. It makes sense as they eat leaves which are a bit bitter. I would eat them, but most of the time they are in a can cooked. I don't know how to obtain fresh raw live pupae. I am not even sure if its advisable to eat them live. Alkali fly larva can be dried and eaten raw. People usually remove the outer skin, and I have heard that they look a bit like rice. The taste must be very different. I have heard that they taste excellent. Its also very high in oil, calories and protein. |
| Wai 05-17-2003 09:27 AM | thank you! |