Acne Q & A Archive: Supplementation is necessary

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Author	Topic: Supplementation is necessary
justmarvin 08-09-2002 08:08 AM	This post was taken from another thread quote: Karen said: it sometimes feels a little confusing to read wheather this or that specific item is good for you or not. (regarding b12 contained in spirulina for example). Does one or does one not need supplements? Ultimately it boils down to what you, the individual, has to say. Listen to your body! Believe me, I know what you mean when you say that it can be confusing -- because it can! Alot of the supplements out there are cheap synthetic marketing gimmicks that do nothing at all! It's buyer beware when purchasing supplements! It is my personal oppinion that supplementation is very beneficial at maintaining peak performance -- but don't try to build rome in one day! If you do decide to take supplements -- first of all, learn to distinguish the good from the bad -- and add them in slowly! I would recommend such whole food supplements as the noni juice (unpasteurized from http://www.healthyhawaiian.com) which is a wonderful product! Bee pollen and royal jelly (I purchase mine from http://www.thenaturalshopper.com) is way better than any multivitamin supplement out there because it is totally natural to begin with! I haven't personally noticed major benefits from the bee supplements, but I have with the noni juice. Here's an excerpt about why supplementation has be come so necessary: quote: Leo Kiesen wrote: aPeople email me every day asking why all the supplementation? Why can't you just get all the nutrients you need from food alone? Believe me I've tried to. I think it is all but impossible, even with a diet that is near perfect. Our diet has changed drastically in the last 100 years. The quality of our food is nothing like it was just a century ago. The way we grow, process, preserve, store, and prepare our food is nothing like it used to be. And as a result supplementation has become a necessity if you want to get all the nutrients not only necessary for clear skin but vibrant health in general… Consider a few examples of how our food has changed… Mineral content… Plants cannot manufacture minerals, they must be absorbed from the soil that plant grows in. If the fruit, vegetable, or grain was grown in soil deficient in minerals then that fruit, vegetable, or grain will not have those minerals present in them. Anyone who has grown fruits and vegetables will tell you that the soil will eventually "ware out" because the crop strips the soil of minerals. Modern day agriculture has come up with a solution to this problem via the use of chemical fertilizers. Fertilizers are suppose to replace lost minerals back into the soil. The problem is that commercial fertilizers only replace nitrogen, potassium, and phosphorous…NPK as the fertilizer is called. But our bodies need nearly 50 different minerals for optimal health. We need nearly 50 minerals, but only 3 minerals are being replaced back into the soil with commercial fertilizers. All the other essential minerals eventually become depleted from the soil. Now if you're in agriculture I'm sure you will argue that crop rotation will alleviate this problem, but it only does so temporarily…eventually the soil will become stripped of minerals that are not replaced. The end result is commercially grown food that is devoid of minerals. The ancient Egyptians used to celebrate the flooding of the Nile River. The reason is because when the Nile flooded it brought to the flood plains new silt, which replenished the mineral makeup of the soil. They knew that crops grown on these flood plains were nutritional superior. Vitamin content… Plants can manufacture vitamins, but vitamins unlike minerals are easily destroyed by heat and oxidation. Once a fruit or vegetable is picked the vitamin content goes down steadily. The longer the fruit or vegetable is stored the more loss in vitamins occur. And veggies and fruits are often picked very green and are sometimes in storage for months at a time before they are finally brought to market. Not only that, veggies and fruits grown using commercial pesticides and herbicides do not produce nearly as many vitamins as those grown without these poisons. The end result is food that is virtually devoid of vitamins. In fact I've seen studies where a commercially grown orange had NO vitamin C by the time it was brought to market. Fats and oils… Oils used to be pressed by local small presses and delivered fresh with milk almost daily. Not any more. Now the oils are pressed in giant presses under high pressure and heat to yield more oil, and then they are even further extracted with harsh poisonous solvents to yield yet more oil. The oils are degummed, refined, bleached, deodorized, hydrogenated, and to top it all off preservatives are added all in an effort to make them last longer. Then they are left in storage sometimes years before finally brought to market. What you have left is oil stripped of all beneficial ingredients, full of industrial solvents, bleaches and preservatives, and virtually tasteless do to the chemical processes it has gone through. Basically commercially processed oils are poisons. Yet fat intake is crucial for health. Not only do these oils have no beneficial fat, but also they destroy the beneficial fats you may get from foods like fish, raw nuts, or high fat veggies like avocados. Grains and flours… Flours used to be hand milled from partially sprouted whole grains just prior to making the bread. This preserved most of the nutrient makeup of the grain. But now days the grains are milled commercially and are not sprouted. Every minute after a grain is milled it looses vitamin content due to oxidation. Now think just how long flour sits out before it is actually baked into bread. Not only that, we don't even use the whole grain anymore. To add insult to injury we strip the outer layer of the grain "refining" it. This is where all the nutrients and fiber are. Once refined the flour becomes a nutritionless paste that not only clogs your system, but also strips your body of nutrients when metabolized, and because the fiber has been removed the flour spikes blood sugar levels. This fiber slows the rate at which the grain would normally be converted to blood glucose. Whole grains, when prepared properly (more about grain preparation later) carry with them all the nutrients necessary for them to be metabolized by the body. But refined grains do not. They require vitamins and minerals to be metabolized. Eating improperly prepared whole grains and/or refined grains strip your body of vitamins and minerals, clog your system, and spike blood sugar levels. Sugars and sweeteners… Nutrient dense sweeteners like honey, black strap molasses, and maple syrup used to be what we used to sweeten foods. These natural sweeteners have all the nutrients necessary for their metabolization therefore they do not strip nutrients from your body. But what do we use now? Refined processed sugars like refined cane sugar, high fructose corn syrup, and, God forbid, poisons like aspartame, saccharine, and Nutra Sweet. Refined cane sugar has absolutely no nutrients…only simple carbohydrates. Yet it requires nutrients like B vitamins to be processed by your body. So when you ingest refined sugars you are stripping your body of nutrients. Sugar substitutes like aspartame, saccharine, or Nutra Sweet are pure poisons to your body. These chemicals when metabolized by your body breakdown into formaldehyde and wood alcohol. That's right, when you ingest these artificial sweeteners you might as well be injecting formaldehyde and wood alcohol directly into your blood stream, because that is exactly what happens once they are metabolized. Preservatives… Prior to World War II we used practically no chemical preservatives at all. In fact they weren't even developed. But today they are in practically everything. Not only are they poisons to your system, but also they hinder the normal process of metabolization. Think about what a chemical preservative does. It prevents the food from reacting with oxygen. Well this reaction with oxygen is a primary process of metabolization. When this process is hindered your body requires much more enzymes to compete the process of digestion. Then add to that the chemical stress these put on your liver and what you have is yet another disease causing poison we are consuming by the pound every year. Pesticides, herbicides, and environmental toxins… We live in a world virtually swimming in chemical residues we did not have a century ago. The air we breath is loaded with chemical oxidants…the food we eat is polluted with pesticides herbicides…the water we drink is not only polluted but chemically treated…all of which put a detoxative stress on our system that requires yet more nutrients then we needed a century ago. I haven't even begun to touch the tip of the ice burg. We live in a very different world now. Food, water, and air are nothing like they used to be. I've eaten about the most perfect diet you can eat complete with only organic veggies and fruits, yet I still have to supplement. I believe the best way to consistently get all the nutrients you need for optimal health is through supplementation. Cheers! Marvin Psalms 103:1-5
Wai 08-09-2002 08:11 AM	quote: Here's an excerpt about why supplementation has be come so necessary You have fallen for sales talk. All they want to do, is sell more supplements, while too much of vitamins / minerals can be harmful, and while our diet can provide us with all the nutrients we need. Of course you can base your thoughts on sales-talk-moved sentiments, but you might consider relying on scientific data instead; Check out the nutrient contents of foods and compare these with our nutrient requirements, in this nutrient calculator. Do you know that too much of any mineral has pro-oxidative properties? causing damage to all cells in our body... More is NOT always better. BTW, I think that it is a bit strange that you do acknowledge that more is not always better regarding omega fats (requiring supplementation in your view), but that this is not the case with vitamins and minerals (again requiring supplementation). Do you see the pattern?
justmarvin 08-09-2002 09:52 AM	Hi Wai, What in my last post are you opposed to? Are you saying are soils are not depleted? That the quality of our produce is equal to that of yesteryears? I have done a search for some data as you requested. Here is what I found regarding the mineral and vitamin makeup in our produce and soils: quote: Goverment Reports 1936, 1977, 1992 1936 Over 60 years ago, U S Congress was concerned with the fertility of American soils and commissioned a scientific working party to investigate them. The scientists' alarming findings were reported to U S Congress in Senate Document No 264. "The alarming fact is that foods (fruits, vegetables and grains) now being raised on millions of acres of land, that no longer contain enough of certain minerals, ARE STARVING US - no matter how much of them we eat. No man can eat enough fruits and vegetables to supply his system with the minerals he requires for perfect health, because his stomach isn't big enough to hold them. The truth is that our foods vary enormously in value, and some of them ARE NOT WORTH EATING AS FOOD. Our physical well-being is more directly dependent upon the minerals we take into our systems, than upon calories or vitamins, or upon the precise proportions of starch, protein or carbohydrates we consume" US Senate Document No 264, 1936 These were the scientific findings from over 60 years ago. The report continued to state that 99% of the American population were deficient in minerals. "Sick soil means sick animals and sick people" 1977 As that report was done in 1936, U S Congress commissioned a further investigation 40 years later hoping to see that soil fertility had improved through modern farming methods. The equally devastating report was given to U S Congress in 1977 By Dr Walter Mertz of the U S Department of Agriculture: "In the future, we will NOT be able to rely anymore on our premise that the consumption of a varied balanced diet will provide all the essential trace elements, because such a diet will be very difficult to obtain for millions of people" US Department of Agriculture 1977 Dr Mertz confirmed that nothing had improved in 40 years. "A varied balanced diet is nutritionally inadequate" 21st Century Have things improved with the help of modern agrochemical companies? At the 1992 Earth Summit in Rio, further reports were presented which confirmed that there were continuing major declines in the mineral values in farm and range soils throughout the world because of rapidly increasing intensive farming. The decline in mineral values over the last 100 years for each continent was: North America 85% decline in minerals South America 76% decline in minerals Africa 74% decline in minerals Europe 72% decline in minerals 1st Rio Earth Summit 1992 Now what's my take on all this? As bad as all this might sound -- I don't believe you're going to die or be chronically ill if you don't supplement! My oppinion, however, is that in order to maintain peak performance it is great to supplement! For some people, they need to supplement! If you have a disease such as cancer, arthritis, or hepatitis then you most likely NEED to add in supplements to your diet! quote: Do you know that too much of any mineral has pro-oxidative properties? causing damage to all cells in our body... Are you talking about synthetic vitamins and minerals? Most of what I recommend are not synthetic supplements -- though there are the few exceptions (such as d-tocopherol vitamin E touted as "natural" or Vitamin A derived from fish liver oil may be considered to some purists as "synthetic"). And concerning truly whole food vitamins (such as spray dried or fresh grass juices/powders, and noni juice), You can never have "too much". Saying otherwise is like saying you could get an overdose of vitamin C from oranges! Supplements vary drastically in quality. The best source for vitamins and minerals is from fresh FOOD, ofcourse (but again the problem posed is that the vitamin/mineral makeup of the food is only as good as the soil it came from). But from how I see it, it is practically impossible to get an adequate dose of vitamins and minerals from food alone -- that is where supplementation comes into play. The RDA is the recommended dose just enough to keep us alive -- not to stay at peak condition. quote: More is NOT always better. Depends what you mean by "more." Our body needs "more" of some vitamins/minerals then others. In curing some diseases it is essential to have large doses of quality vitamins/minerals to fight of the disease. quote: BTW, I think that it is a bit strange that you do acknowledge that more is not always better regarding omega fats (requiring supplementation in your view), You could take alot of omega fats. Just keep it in balance with the other omegas (3,6,9)! Cheers, Marvin
justmarvin 08-09-2002 10:17 AM	quote: Is That Apple You're Eating A Year Old? BBC Good Food Magazine October 99 Growers achieve maximum storage benefit (and profit) by picking fruit when unripe and selling it over a long season. Just prior to picking, the fruit is sprayed with pesticides and fungicides and other post-harvest chemicals and then waxed to stop wrinkling in storage. It is transported in refrigerated containers under a combination of gases. These ensure that the fruit is artificially ripened for when it is needed, often several months later. Your apple could have been in cold storage for a year and will have lost most of its vitamin and enzyme benefit, The banana was picked green and ripened in storage by ethylene gas, Your orange loses 5% of its vitamin C content each day during its 4000 mile shipment and whilst in store. The potato will have been sprayed over a dozen times ending with anti-sprouting chemicals. quote: The abstract � More than 2.6 billion pounds of pesticides, herbicides and fungicides are applied to US agricultural products each year, and 496 pesticides that may leave residues. � Many pesticides now in use were granted in before safety tests were required to determine whether the pesticide causes cancer, birth defects, genetic damage, or reproductive disorders. � Sixty-four percent of pesticides now in use have not been minimally tested for their toxic effects. � Modern farming methods have depleted the soil of its natural nutrients. � Artificial fertilizers replace only 4-8 of the 70 natural vitamins and minerals in fertile soil. My purpose is not to scare anyone from purchasing produce in your local grocery store! I'm just trying to point out that the growing methods and the soil makeup is not the same as yesteryears! I personally buy my produce from the grocery store -- as I do not have access to organic farm sold produce. Cheers, Marvin
benzapp 08-09-2002 11:21 AM	I am not doubting that there is some issue in regards to depletion of soil. Personally, I think there are too many people on this planet, but thats a whole other discussion. But, I must point out a certain lack of logic in this argument. Unfortunately, it is a common logical fallacy today. You are assuming that there is a zero sum game with minerals in the soil. We take the minerals out, eat them in foods, then they are gone. All elements outside of hydrogen and helium were created by a supernova. To that end, we are all products of brilliantly destructive stellar phenomena. When we realize that it is through this that elements are created, it turns out the only way to truly destroy or create new elements is through nuclear reactions. Where then, do these minerals go? Dead bodies? Perhaps we should start farming in cemetaries? Personally, I have followed the wai diet for about five months, and I don't take vitamins or eat organic produce, its just too expensive. I do admit I am deviating from wai's recommendation, I eat about six ounces of raw fish per day as it is cheap and plentiful in NYC. (fresh salmon is only ~$9/lb. For the price of a Big Mac, I get to eat half a pound of delicious salmon) I also am 6'1", and work out daily. I will be the first one to condemn anecdotal evidence as not being evidence, but if there are bad results of not taking vitamins, I have not experienced them myself. I feel great, think clearly, and can bike forty miles or bench 250 pounds easily. If I am consuming an insufficient quantity of vitamins, would I experience any problems indicative of this? peace -Ben
justmarvin 08-09-2002 12:02 PM	quote: But, I must point out a certain lack of logic in this argument. Unfortunately, it is a common logical fallacy today. You are assuming that there is a zero sum game with minerals in the soil. We take the minerals out, eat them in foods, then they are gone. Ask anyone in the field of agriculture and they should be aware that over time the soil can be depleted of minerals. That is why many farmers try to put crop rotation into practice; although, crop rotation has its own problems as well. quote: All elements outside of hydrogen and helium were created by a supernova. To that end, we are all products of brilliantly destructive stellar phenomena. This is theory, not science. You mentioned anecdotal evidence, well the theory you mentioned is full of it (no pun intended).[/URL] quote: I will be the first one to condemn anecdotal evidence as not being evidence, but if there are bad results of not taking vitamins, I have not experienced them myself. I feel great, think clearly, and can bike forty miles or bench 250 pounds easily. If by anecodtal you mean as using casual observations as a basis for your conclusions, then you probably already know that you're being pretty anecdotal right now Besides, the sources I cited, would have had to do scientific analysis to form such conclusions... It would take more than just a survey you know.[/URL] quote: Personally, I have followed the wai diet for about five months, and I don't take vitamins or eat organic produce, its just too expensive. I do admit I am deviating from wai's recommendation, I eat about six ounces of raw fish per day as it is cheap and plentiful in NYC. (fresh salmon is only ~$9/lb. For the price of a Big Mac, I get to eat half a pound of delicious salmon) Wow, sounds like you are doing great! Keep it up! Listend to your body! I used to do a little weight lifting myself, and am planning to get back into it; perhaps you can provide me with some insights and tips that worked for you. quote: If I am consuming an insufficient quantity of vitamins, would I experience any problems indicative of this? Depending on what you supplement with -- I believe it can help your performance alot! Do a search on the benefits of wheatgrass juice; It has been known not only to help the body cleanse but to help athletes with their training. It might help with your gains. God bless! Marvin
Wai 08-09-2002 12:48 PM	quote: Marvin wrote: What in my last post are you opposed to? Are you saying are soils are not depleted? The issue is not how much minerals the soil contains, but how much nutrients the foods contain that you consume, agree? I'm opposed to your opinion that a fruits - raw animal food diet does not supply you with all required nutrients. Luckily, I can easily prove my point: 1. Vitamin and mineral contents of most foods are continously investigated, updated, and published. 2. RDAs have been established, making sure that even the needs of those with elevated nutrient requirements are met. Thus, after having composed your own version of my diet, you can easily check whether this diet supplies you with all required nutrients, by submitting your version of the diet to this nutrient calculator quote: in order to maintain peak performance it is great to supplement! Not if you already are absorbing all required nutrients through your diet. Consuming MORE (minerals, antioxidants) may have SEVERE adverse effects. You are simply assuming that 'more' cannot be harmful. quote: Are you talking about synthetic vitamins and minerals? No. Metals (zinc, iron, manganese etc.) BY DEFINITION have pro-oxidative properties, and, for example, vitamin C by nature increases the level of free iron in the blood. quote: concerning truly whole food vitamins (such as spray dried or fresh grass juices/powders, and noni juice), You can never have "too much". Saying otherwise is like saying you could get an overdose of vitamin C from oranges! It is very hard to overdose on vitamin C by eating oranges because the body 'recognizes' the natural 'package that holds vitamin C', and can adequately decrease the absorption rate. Supplements, however, are extremely concentrated, far more concentrated than any food, which may lead to the impossibility to sufficiently decrease the absorption rate. quote: The RDA is the recommended dose just enough to keep us alive Not true. It is well documented that most people don't absorb enough according to the RDAs. quote: In curing some diseases it is essential to have large doses of quality vitamins/minerals to fight of the disease. In which disease EXACTLY do you need ELEVATED levels of a certain nutrient? It has been proven that elevated levels of any metal causes more damage to cells.
benzapp 08-09-2002 01:01 PM	Hmm, a troll huh? in this little forum? Listen friend, you seem to be very confused on what is science and what is theory. All science is in fact theory. But this is not the same use of the word as religious folks might use. Einstein's theory of relativity is not theoretical in the sense it has no basis in reality. Matter is in fact a form of energy, and E=mc^2 indicates the ratio which is quite certain. The 1000 nuclear power plants, and Nagasaki and Heroshima give enough evidence. Of course, maybe watching a couple kilos of plutonium convert into energy right in front of your eyes might give you the hard evidence you desire. But, you would then be at least blind, probably dead. The reality is there is no certainty of anything in this universe. There are a variety of theories about everything. When there are multiple theories that attempt to explain a certain phenomenon, whichever one has the most supporting evidence is deemed to be more certain than the other. We know that stars create Hydrogen, Helium, Carbon, Oxygen, Silicon and Iron in that order because we can observe through spectral analysis these elements in stars depending on their age. Not only that, we can measure the quantity of these elements in our own planet. Is it any wonder the earth is made up of those elements? Not only is this observable in nature, but we can create elements in the same way stars due, through nuclear fusion, in bombs and particle accelerators. Have you looked at a periodic table lately? Most of the elements after Uranium are man made. We made them, using the same means as stars. You are trolling because you are attempting to insert false uncertainty in this argument. What is certain is elements are distributed in nature in certain quantities as a result of millions of years of solar fusion and resulting novas. The uncertainty here is whether or not there is a lack of elements in foods. You seem to think so. Of course, you don't know where the elements are obtained used in vitamins. They also come from nature. Why would they be in vitamins and not in natural foods, is a matter of debate. You need to answer two questions to prove you are not a foolish troll. 1) Where do elements go once we consume them? Are they gone forever? Yes or no. If the answer is Yes. You need to go back to school because you don't know what you are talking about. If the answer is No. You need to tell me what happens to them. Do we need to pump sewage onto our fields? do the elements stay in our body? Do we need to recycle human remains? If you were a smart cookie, you would tell me where these elements come from. But of course, you have proven you don't know. 2) What are the symptoms of mineral deficiency that I should be experiencing? Increased energy is not an adequate answer. I personally can bench 250 lbs, and bike 40 miles in 3 hours. How will I benefit from taking vitamins? What precise syndrome occurs? By giving something as vague and meaningless as increased energy, you eliminate the possibility of debate. Are we talking increased energy like after I snort a 100mg line of cocaine? Drink a grande iced mocha at Starbucks? PS: Anecdotal evidence is evidence given by personal testimony. Such as, I believe God exists because Bill says so. That is not evidence. Bill could be crazy, on drugs, whatever. I have provided no anecdotal evidence. I am not making a claim that needs evidence. Note, anekdotos, the ancient greek word corrupted by English, actually means "unpublished". As in, unpublished scientific studies in this case. hahahahaha! The very fact you put "God Bless" at the end of your tag line indicates you know nothing of science or logical thinking. Until you realize the existence of God is no more certain than Shiva, Santa Clause, or the Easter Bunny, you can't speak of scientific thinking. for info on how elements are created in our universe see here. For info on how to construct a logical argument, and the various logical fallacies employed, see here. Byebye!
Wai 08-09-2002 01:02 PM	Hi Ben, welcome to this board. quote: Ben_Zapp wrote: Personally, I have followed the wai diet for about five months, and I don't take vitamins or eat organic produce, its just too expensive. I'm curious by nature; What was your initial motivation to try my diet? quote: I do admit I am deviating from wai's recommendation, I eat about six ounces of raw fish per day as it is cheap and plentiful in NYC. In the book it is advised not to eat more than 3 ounces of of raw fish, but that is mainly to prevent / eliminate acne / cellulite. Once they have cleared their skin, I actually encourage people (with acne) to start experimenting with how much fish / egg yolks they can eat without getting acne again; to personalize their diet after their skin has cleared. If my boyfriend wouldn't break out from eating more than 3 ounces a day, he would eat about 6 ounces too, because when consuming more protein, it is easier to maintain your muscle weight.
justmarvin 08-10-2002 01:06 AM	quote: Wai said: The issue is not how much minerals the soil contains, but how much nutrients the foods contain that you consume, agree? But the issue I presented with a myriad of statements present the issue that the nutrient makeup of our food is only as good as the soil. So the issue does ultimately boil down to how much minerals the soil contain. quote: At the 1992 Earth Summit in Rio, further reports were presented which confirmed that there were continuing major declines in the mineral values in farm and range soils throughout the world because of rapidly increasing intensive farming. The decline in mineral values over the last 100 years for each continent was: North America 85% decline in minerals South America 76% decline in minerals Africa 74% decline in minerals Europe 72% decline in minerals 1st Rio Earth Summit 1992 quote: Wai said: Vitamin and mineral contents of most foods are continously investigated, updated, and published. Yes they are investigated. If you read my above posts I listed such investigation from goverment Reports 1936, 1977, 1992 by the US Congress. quote: RDAs have been established, making sure that even the needs of those with elevated nutrient requirements are met. The recommended daily allowance for a specific nutrient the food we eat supposedly contains, correct? First of all, the RDA does not guarantee the nutrient makeup of the produce that we consume. Consider an orange; In one case it was reported to have had virtually no vitamin c content when it hit the market! Whereas the other could arrive with a decent vitamin c content. Here is what a former chairman of the RDA committe has to say: quote: In Nutrition Today in the article "Official Dietary Allowances: Those Pesky RDAs," Dr. A. E. Harper, former chairman of the RDA committee, pointed out that the RDA's "are not recommendations for the ideal diet." The term "recommended allowance" is used "to avoid any implication of ... optimal requirements." quote: Wai said: Thus, after having composed your own version of my diet, you can easily check whether this diet supplies you with all required nutrients, by submitting your version of the diet to this nutrient calculator We don't live in an ideal world, we live in the real world -- we live in a world virtually swimming in chemical residues we did not have a century ago -- and the quality of today's food has been severely compromised and varies in its nutrient makeup. quote: Not if you already are absorbing all required nutrients through your diet. Which I would suggest to you would be almost impossible! GLA for example is rare in our foods, and most people are deficient. quote: Consuming MORE (minerals, antioxidants) may have SEVERE adverse effects. Depending on what you consume! We have macronutrients that the body could benefit from above the RDA dosages. Ofcourse "more is not ALWAYS better;" This statement applies for some nutrients. quote: You are simply assuming that 'more' cannot be harmful. No, that is not true. Rather, I would advise one to study enough to distinguish which dosages are adequate and/or needed. quote: Metals (zinc, iron, manganese etc.) BY DEFINITION have pro-oxidative properties, and, for example, vitamin C by nature increases the level of free iron in the blood. Did you know that our brain is full of metals? Copper and iron neutralize dangerous free radicals by mopping up electrons. And cells sometimes release zinc to help fight infections. Vitamin C reduces oxidative damage! Latest evidence indicates zinc deficiency is a potential cause of a destructive pro-oxidative process that can result in brain injury quote: Wai said: ...Supplements, however, are extremely concentrated I totally advocate getting your vitamins from fresh food. That would be the ideal way -- but that is impossible in today's world! Depending on the needs of the individual, is whether or not I would recommend supplementation. Supplementation is not a replacement for food, it is an addition. There are some supplements I believe everyone would benefit from! To name a few: Organic grass juices, unpasteurized noni juice, bee pollen and royal jelly (better than any multivitamin because it is natural), and essential fatty acids. Like I said, it is buyer beware when purchasing supps -- there are alot of junk out there, and you have to be able to distinguish quality from manafacturer's hype! quote: Not true. It is well documented that most people don't absorb enough according to the RDAs. It is also documented that certain nutrients do not produce results unless taken ABOVE the RDA. quote: In which disease EXACTLY do you need ELEVATED levels of a certain nutrient? Hepatitis C, Cancer, Arthritis, Alzheimers, just to name a few. quote: It has been proven that elevated levels of any metal causes more damage to cells. Ofcourse, I do not advise supplementing elevated levels for ALL supplements! I would not recommend supplementing more than 100mg a day for zinc. Magnesium, however, is a macronutrient and your body does well in taking above the RDA (400mg). Studies have shown that results are not seen until you supplement at 900mg or more. There is also the factor of the forms! I would never take inorganic or ionic magnesium such as sulphate, oxide, citrate, carbonate, bicarbonate and chloride! You have to get organic or chelated forms. Again, the best supplements are whole food supplements. True, the best source of vitamins is from organic produce; however adding certain supplements, if not a necessity, is definitely a benefit! I enjoy the debate. Thanks for your thoughts Wai. Ofcourse, you'll probably have more to say hehe. God bless! Marvin
justmarvin 08-10-2002 01:30 AM	quote: Ben said: What are the symptoms of mineral deficiency that I should be experiencing? It is better to look at the benefits. Just to name a few: quote: Excerpts from Leo Kiesen's Acne Miracle: Vitamin E: Retards cellular aging due to oxidation, neutralize free radicals in the skin caused by ultra violet rays, improves athletic performance, essential for skin wound healing and skin repair, vital for sexual function, prevents clots from forming, and may help in memory improvement. Zinc: Zinc regulates proper levels of vitamin E in the blood and is essential for the absorption of vitamin A. It is required for protein synthesis and collagen (skin) formation. It promotes healing of wounds and boosts the immune system (so important when fighting off acne bacteria, especially cystic acne). Some evidence suggests it is also a powerful anti-oxidant (protects EFAs). It is also said to help regulate the activity of the skin's oil glands. Needless to say, it is very important in the prevention and elimination of acne. Not only that, zinc is essential for proper growth, sexual maturation, involved in the action of insulin, growth hormone, testosterone, and estrogen (key nutrient in hormonal balance and utilization). It is also involved in more that 200-enzymatic reactions Magnesium: A lot of research seems to suggest magnesium plays a major role in normalizing hormone production and use (Oh so important for healthy skin). Magnesium when combined with calcium dramatically improves PMS symptoms (probably because of the effect it has on normalizing hormones). If that's not enough…magnesium is absolutely essential for skin tone and flexibility. Not only does it make your skin smooth and flexible but also it dramatically increases the strength and flexibility in bones. And magnesium is an anti-stress mineral (stress is a major cause of nutrient depletion, and toxic overload, which leads to acne). B Vitamins: B vitamins boost the action of EFAs. They are necessary to convert shorter chain EFAs into their longer chain fatty acids. The B vitamins (especially B6 and B3) then help to covert those longer fatty acids into prostaglandins. In essence a deficiency in B vitamins would cause an EFA deficiency. You will only notice a benefit from B vitamin supplementation if you are deficient. Your body excretes excess B vitamins in your urine. Therefore a toxic buildup is very unlikely. If you are taking excess B vitamins you will notice your urine turn bright yellow. It won't harm you at all but it will be a good indication to cut back on the dosage. Selenium: Selenium is a trace mineral. Its primary functions are the protections of EFAs from oxidation. In fact, once you start supplementing with EFAs your body will require significantly more selenium to protect the EFAs from oxidation. In effect EFA supplementation can deplete selenium stores. Selenium's anti-oxidant qualities work best when combined with vitamin E and zinc. Selenium and vitamin E act synergistically to aid in the production of anti-bodies and to help maintain a healthy heart and liver. (The liver is thee most important organ for healthy skin). Selenium is also needed for tissue (skin) elasticity. It is also a cancer fighter, and is highly beneficial for heart disease. Vitamin C Vitamin C is a strong anti-oxidant. It seems to boost the effects of vitamin E. Therefore it is a strong EFA protector. Vitamin C's benefits would be a mile long if I listed them here. The major benefit I see in regards to acne are...aids the body in converting EFAs into prostaglandins, boosts the immune system (helps kill acne bacteria), and essential in collagen (skin) formation, aids in the production of anti-stress hormones (helps reduce stress), and a toxin neutralizer (takes a significant toxic burden off the liver). Not only that, vitamin C protects against the harmful effects of pollution, helps prevent cancer, protects against infection, and promotes the healing of wounds... just to name a few. Even if it did nothing for acne the benefits are so great that I believe everyone should be supplementing with it. God bless! Marvin
Wai 08-10-2002 10:40 AM	Marvin, Why do you only want to see one side of the story? Why can you only think in terms of deficiency? Essential nutrients are good, but not good ONLY; Excess of any essential nutrient has adverse effects. It is about balance. quote: Marvin wrote: the issue I presented with a myriad of statements present the issue that the nutrient makeup of our food is only as good as the soil. So the issue does ultimately boil down to how much minerals the soil contain. This is really nonsense; If you know the mineral composition of the soil, you still CANNOT POSSIBLY tell how much of any nutrient the apple that grows on that soil, will contain, simply because multiple factors are involved (sunlight, heat, rain etc). So, if you want to know the apple's nutrient composition, you need to investigate the apple, NOT the soil. quote: the RDA does not guarantee the nutrient makeup of the produce that we consume Of course not!!! The RDAs have NOTHING to do with the nutrient make up of foods. The RDAs are about the nutrient requirements, regardless of what foods you eat. quote: Consider an orange; In one case it was reported to have had virtually no vitamin c content when it hit the market! Such an orange has not ripened properly, and will taste awful. You should always consume well-ripened , good tasting fruits only. Good tasting oranges can ALWAYS supply you with sufficient vitamin C. quote: the RDA's "are not recommendations for the ideal diet." Of course not, because there are no ideal nutrient recommendations possible; Just the absorption variations are already of waaaay too great influence. quote: Wai wrote: Thus, after having composed your own version of my diet, you can easily check whether this diet supplies you with all required nutrients, by submitting your version of the diet to this nutrient calculator quote: Marvin wrote: the quality of today's food has been severely compromised and varies in its nutrient makeup It is not the issue whether fruits etc contain less nutrients than they used to do. The issue is whether you can absorb all required nutrients from the foods that you consume. To check this, you need to compare your (average) nutrient intake with your (estimated) nutrient requirements, by the use of our nutrient calculator for example. quote: Wai wrote Not if you already are absorbing all required nutrients through your diet quote: Marvin wrote Which I would suggest to you would be almost impossible! In comparison with the official RDAs, my diet, according to scientific investigations, supplies me with all required nutrients. If that is 'almost impossible', what is a lie? 1. The RDAs? They actually should be much higher? 2. The nutrient composition of fruits etc.? Are they false? quote: GLA for example is rare in our foods, and most people are deficient Exactly how much dietary GLA do we need? quote: We have macronutrients that the body could benefit from above the RDA dosages Sure, but that is not the issue. The issue is whether 'too much is harmful'. quote: "more is not ALWAYS better;" This statement applies for some nutrients. For which nutrients does it NOT apply??? quote: Did you know that our brain is full of metals? The issue is not whether metals are essential nutrients, they ARE. quote: Copper and iron neutralize dangerous free radicals by mopping up electrons. Only electrons that are oppositely charged, right? The issue is whether the same properties of these metals can also cause damage to cells. quote: Vitamin C reduces oxidative damage! The issue is not whether vitamin C is an essential nutrient, it IS. The issue is not whether vitamin C is an antioxidant, it IS. The issue is whether elevated blood vitamin c levels can increase the level of free, pro-oxidative iron, causing damage to cells in our body. quote: Latest evidence indicates zinc deficiency is a potential cause of a destructive pro-oxidative process that can result in brain injury The issue is not whether a lack of zinc is harmful, and whether zinc is essential, it IS. The issue is whether elevated blood zinc levels can cause extra oxidative damage to cells. quote: I totally advocate getting your vitamins from fresh food. That would be the ideal way -- but that is impossible in today's world! So, it is impossible to get all required vitamins from fresh food? That is totally in contradicion with your next statement: quote: Depending on the needs of the individual, is whether or not I would recommend supplementation So, now, it is no longer impossible. now it depends on your requirements... What is it Marvin? Impossible or not? quote: It is also documented that certain nutrients do not produce results unless taken ABOVE the RDA. Almost the opposite is true: All nutrients 'produce results' as long as there is still a need for more in our body; they are effectively utilized. Only after having consumed enough of a specific nutrient, may consuming even more of this nutrient no longer have positive effects. quote: Wai wrote: In which disease EXACTLY do you need ELEVATED levels of a certain nutrient? quote: Marvin wrote: Hepatitis C, Cancer, Arthritis, Alzheimers, just to name a few. Yep. And did you know that Cancer, Arthritis and alzheimers (just to name a few) can be caused by excess of specific nutrients? quote: I would not recommend supplementing more than 100mg a day for zinc. Ha, ha, you are a funny guy! What makes you think that the zinc does not cause oxidative damage consuming THAT much? quote: Magnesium, however, is a macronutrient and your body does well in taking above the RDA (400mg). Studies have shown that results are not seen until you supplement at 900mg or more "results are not seen"??? Magnesium is an essential nutrient, and especially if you consumed a low magnesium diet, will the magnesium be utilized VERY efficiently. You make it seem that magnesium is a drug instead of an essential nutrient. quote: Ben wrote: What are the symptoms of mineral deficiency that I should be experiencing? quote: Marvin wrote It is better to look at the benefits You still don't get it. You think of minerals as drugs, that need to evoke certain effects, which requires a high enough dosage. Minerals however, are essential nutrients, and therefore ingesting them is already BENEFICIAL. Him not experiencing deficiency symptoms is proof of the beneficial effect of the mineral contents of his diet.
justmarvin 08-10-2002 01:30 PM	There seems to be several issues that spawned from the original debate. The original issue was if supplementation was necessary. My initial argument was that it is necessary due to the belief that the crop is only as good as the soil it came from. Now granted, as you mentioned, there are other factors that determine the nutrient makeup for the food. But these statements have yet to be addressed: "Plants cannot manufacture minerals, they must be absorbed from the soil that plant grows in. *If the fruit, vegetable, or grain was grown in soil deficient in minerals then that fruit, vegetable, or grain will not have those minerals present in them." If that statement is true, then i see no argument why supplementation is indeed necessary. Let me pull up the 1936 government report once again: "The alarming fact is that foods (fruits, vegetables and grains) now being raised on millions of acres of land, that no longer contain enough of certain minerals, ARE STARVING US - no matter how much of them we eat." And again, the 1st Rio Earth Summit 1992* report: "The decline in mineral values over the last 100 years for each continent was: North America 85% decline in minerals South America 76% decline in minerals Africa 74% decline in minerals Europe 72% decline in minerals" Many sources were cited that push the thought that supplementation is indeed necessary. Magnesium, for instance, is one mineral that has been said to be depleted from the soil by conventional farming methods. It is estimated that 75% of Americans are chronically deficient in this vital mineral. Now, wouldn't you think that supplementation would be beneficial if not necessary in such a case? The next issue that was presented is that excess vitamins/minerals is harmful. Excess as compared to what? What in my supplementation guidelines is excess enough to provoke harm to the body. Rather, I believe it provides benefits. Yes, I agree, excess can be toxic. Vitamin A in high dosages (over 30,000 I.U.) can be very toxic; That is why I would recommend starting at 10000 I.U. Supplements such as Natural Carotene on the other hand are virtually non-toxic! Dosages of zinc over 100mg is said to depress the immune system; I would recommend between 50mg and 100mg which is adequate enough to produce beneficial results. Magnesium is a macronutrient and is virtually non-toxic. etc etc etc There is also the issue of vitamin forms. For instance, Vitamin E d1-alpha tocopherol is a synthetic petroleum by product and does more harm than good! Vitamin d-alpha tocopherol is the suggested form. All i've been trying to say is that supplementation if not already a necessity can be very beneficial when one knows how to supplement and with what forms. I hope this conversation does not turn into a heated debate -- as I appreciate your thoughts, Wai, as it makes me think. If you think this will go nowhere, will turn into a heated debate, or for any reason at all; let us feel free to come to a point to, as they say, "agree to disagree." God bless! Marvin
bk 08-10-2002 03:41 PM	I'm a bit out of my depth, but I hope the following is not too useless. quote: Let me pull up the 1936 government report once again: As a casual reader, I am not sure how much faith to put in a health document that is almost 70 years old, without any current supporting research. quote: The decline in mineral values over the last 100 years for each continent was: North America 85% decline in minerals [...] I suppose you are citing this as support for the 1936 report. I don't think that it itself provides any support. Here's why: Products grown in soil can only absorb/utilize a certain amount of material from the soil (they are not infinitely large produce). Given that, an n% decrease in minerals in the soil says nothing. The question is whether or not the soil has enough minerals to supply the produce with (in addition to all the other factors). Now, I'm not saying that what you say isn't necessarially an issue, just that the support you have provided is not very convincing to me. Additionally, you can see the recent mineral contents of fruits from Wai's nutrient calculator. This is strong evidence to suggest that today's fruit does contain enough. Is there a difference between the Orange they measured and one you can buy? But one could hypothesize that the declining mineral contents of soil could have a direct impact in the future mineral content of fruits, should the soil continue to "degrade," and that would be something to think about. quote: Many sources were cited that push the thought that supplementation is indeed necessary. Lots of people think you need lots of Calcium in your diet, too. But this doesn't mean that it is correct.
tres 08-13-2002 12:26 PM	Hi there everybody, Just want to say that I love your diet Wai, helping me with my bloating & cramps. The only reason I called is to tell everyone to enjoy the diet it's fun, & by the way Marvin, God bless. Later, Helanie . THIS THREAD CONTAINS MORE THAN ONE PAGE >>>
Vanessa 08-13-2002 11:46 PM	quote: 1) Where do elements go once we consume them? Are they gone forever? Yes or no. If the answer is Yes. You need to go back to school because you don't know what you are talking about. If the answer is No. You need to tell me what happens to them. Do we need to pump sewage onto our fields? do the elements stay in our body? Do we need to recycle human remains? If you were a smart cookie, you would tell me where these elements come from. But of course, you have proven you don't know. Ok, I'm not trying to add more heat to this debate but I just wanted to support Ben's argument with a little (french) saying I often hear and use myself: "Rien ne se perd, rien ne se cr�e", which means 'nothing disappears, nothing appears from nothing' or if you prefer 'we lose nothing, we create nothing'. (I tried my best to translate, hope I don't confuse anyone.)
engesongwok 03-24-2003 07:35 PM	What does anyone think of foods which have been grown in a nutrient enriched media? Can these foods have toxic levels of nutrients? I suppose that it can. In certain places, natural levels of selenium can create toxic foods.