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| Author | Topic: Phosphorus, calcium and bone health |
| creamy_avocado 11-14-2002 01:04 AM | This post was copied from this thread There seem to be so many problems with a fruitarian diet.. are all of those moot on Wai's diet? ... TEETH are a major issue for fruitarians.. even to the point of losing all of them! Other than that, there seem to be other problems related to deficiencies- brittle hair and nails, underweight, weakness, calcium deficiencies (bone problems), etc. Because of the eggs and fish in this diet, many of those are probably not a concern.. except for maybe the calcium deficiency? I read that this diet has enough mg of calcium.. but all of the foods that are supposed to be high in it (nuts, egg yolks) all have more phosphorus than calcium and are therefore acid forming.. is anyone else concerned? Also, I know that people seem to overemphasize the calcium issue.. but this diet does seem to be low in minerals in general. Many raw foodists (most) reccomend lots of greens. I'm trying to see it from both sides. Thanks again RRM! |
| RRM 11-14-2002 02:38 PM | quote:If brittle bones would be due to high phosphorus contents, consuming milk would be protective, since cow's milk contains only 92 mg / 100 gram, and lots of calcium. (the phosphorus contents in comparison: Brazil nuts 674, egg yolks 590, salmon 266, bananas 28 mg) However: All statistical data show that in countries where MOST milk is consumed, the incidence of hip fractures is the HIGHEST. In the world, most milk (over 300 kg / cap / year) is consumed in Finland, Sweden, The Netherlands and Switzerland (US: 254 kg), and in exactly these countries the hip fracture incidence has skyrocketed. (25) In Greece the average milk consumption doubled from 1961 to 1977 (21) (and was even higher in 1985), and during the period 1977 - 1985 the age adjusted osteoporosis incidence almost doubled too. (22) In Hong Kong in 1989 twice as much dairy products were consumed as in 1966 (21) and osteoporosis incidence tripled in the same period. (23) Now their milk consumption level is almost “European”, and so is osteoporosis incidence. (24) Like Australians and New Zealanders, (26) Americans consume three fold more milk than the Japanese, and hip-fracture incidence in Americans is therefore 2½ fold higher. (27) Among those within America that consume less milk, such as the Mexican-Americans and Black Americans, osteoporosis incidence is two-fold lower than in white Americans, (28) which is not due to genetic differences. (29) In Venezuela and Chile much less milk is consumed than in the US, Finland, Sweden and Switzerland, while the hip fracture incidence in Venezuela and Chile is over 3 fold lower. (61) Chinese consume very little milk (8 kg / year), and hip-fracture incidence, therefore, is among the lowest in the world; hip-fracture incidence in Chinese women is 6 fold lower than in the US. (30) (The average American consumes 254 kg milk / year) In other countries where very little milk is consumed, on the average, as in Congo (32), Guinea (33) and Togo (34) (6 kg / year) osteoporosis is extremely rare too. In the Dem. Rep. Congo, Liberia, Ghana, Laos and Cambodia even less milk is consumed (average person: 1 to 3 kg a year !!), and they've never even heard of age-related hip fracture. So, obviously, consuming much phosphorus relative to calcium, is not what osteoporosis is about; in all countries where most calcium is consumed, hip fracture incidence is highest. quote: |
| creamy_avocado 11-14-2002 04:22 PM | I wasn't reccomending milk, of course.. Milk is dead food.. I doubt the calcium is even assimable. That doesn't refute your point that a diet high in phosphorus DOESN'T cause any problems.. but do you have any evidence that isn't based on dairy? The long term raw foodists (vegans, at least) all seem to lean towards greens and less towards fruit, except for Dr Graham. The problem is that there arent enough raw foodists to be able to compare high green diets and high fruit diets. I would consider that this diet is different than most high fruit diets in that it contains animal products, which may make all the difference (though not mineral-wise)- however, there are vegans following this diet plan, who would therefore be completely fruitarian- and that has showen repeatedly to be very dangerous. I do LIKE the idea of eating only fruit, nuts, and egg yolks.. but I'd like to see some evidence that it will only benefit my health! Thanks ![[Razz]](../tongue.gif) |
| RRM 11-15-2002 11:32 AM | quote:Scientific research has shown that it IS: that in countries where much dairy is consumed the average bone mass is greater; the less milk is consumed, the lower the average bone mineral density (BMD=bone mass) Scientific research has shown that the intake of more milk increases the uptake of calcium in the blood, AND the uptake of blood-calcium into the bones. The issue is not whether more calcium increases BMD; it DOES. The issue is that in countries with the highest BMD, the hip fracture rates are highest too. quote:In countries where much dairy products are consumed, the average phosphorus intake relative to the calcium intake is LOWER, because dairy products contain so much calcium relative to phosphorus. And in exactly these countries, the hip fracture rates are the HIGHEST. If osteoporosis was caused by high phosphorus relative to calcium intakes, the above would not be possible. |
| creamy_avocado 11-15-2002 02:53 PM | All right, well I'll try not to worry about it then ![[Big Grin]](../biggrin.gif) Do you eat any greens or vegetable matter whatsoever? Fruits/nuts/egg yolks is a balanced long term diet? My concern wasn't just calcium, it was minerals in general. Thanks. |
| creamy_avocado 11-15-2002 09:50 PM | Check out this site: it lists the phosphorus content of a lot of foods- dairy is pretty high! Though not as high as nuts.. http://www.healthyeatingclub.com/info/books-phds/books/foodfacts/html/data/data5f.html#fruit "Phosphorus, though necessary for health, is acid producing in the body, and the body must have sufficient calcium with it or draw on calcium from the body to balance it. Phosphorus is notoriously high in yeast, and in soda pop, which used to be called "phosphates". As you can see, the amounts of phosphorus in fruit and in veggies is pretty low by comparison to other foods, though high in nuts/seeds, which are acid producing--high protein foods are high in phosphorus, and protein foods are acid producing. Note in the dairy section, the amount in human milk." "Calcium and phosphorus are important minerals. They maintain good teeth and bones and keep muscles and nerves working properly. Healthy kidneys help control the amount of calcium and phosphorus in the blood. When the kidneys are not working properly, they cannot remove enough phosphorus from the blood. When the calcium and phosphorus are not balanced and within good levels (between 3.5 and 5.5), bone disease can develop. High phosphorus levels cause blood calcium levels to drop. When phosphorus levels are high a message is sent to the bones (by a hormone) telling them to release calcium and “bind” the phosphorus, that is, remove the phosphorus from the blood. Bones become brittle due to the loss of the calcium. If high phosphorus levels remain untreated over a period of time, the following things can occur: ˇ Itching (arms, legs, back, chest) ˇ Red eyes ˇ Continuous bone pain: especially hips, knees, ankles and heels ˇ Bones that break easily ˇ Blood vessels become clogged with calcium that should be in the bones. This can cause sores that won’t heal, strokes, and heart attacks." |
| creamy_avocado 11-16-2002 01:03 PM | "The most plentiful mineral in the body is calcium, comprising 95% of the mineral content of the body. All the other minerals combined make up the remaining 5%. Calcium is an alkaline mineral, and is the great alkalinizer in the body because of its abundance. All cooked food is acid-producing. Animal products, grains, legumes, nuts, seeds, as well as probably fermented things are acid-producing, whether cooked or raw. Additionally, when foods such as animal products, grains, legumes, ferment is put into the body, more calcium must be used up to deal with their toxic effects of such inherently incompatible things in the body. That is one reason why they result in more calcium depletion than raw nuts and edible seeds. Additionally, when we consume a lot of protein, the excess must be excreted--the body cannot store protein, it must be either broken down into amino acids, or else eliminated. Acid producing foods such as animal products, grains, legume, nuts/seeds, are also high in protein. Whenever the body consumes more protein than it can break down and must eliminate it, it is flushed out of the small intestine. The entire contents of nutrients from the meal is also washed out thereby, including, of course, all the calcium and other nutrients from the meal just eaten. So the body must then draw calcium from somewhere for its metabolic processes, and of course it must draw from the bones, which are the stores of reserve calcium in the body. In books by Dr. John McDougall, he describes how there is consistent bone loss in people eating animal products. Drinking milk, which is high in calcium, nevertheless results in bone loss, because most of the calcium in milk is bound and not available for us (I'll bet that's not the case if we drink the milk of our own species, however). And the body must use its calcium reserves to neutralize the acid-formation in the body from drinking milk. Dr. McDougall also points out that taking calcium "supplements" have shown no effect upon the rate of bone loss." |
| RRM 11-18-2002 02:45 PM | quote:Never. I only eat tomatoes, cucumber and avocado (yes, the creamy ones! ![[Smile]](../smile.gif) ), but I don't consider them veggies, but fruits.I do like a bit of chives on my salad (consisting of the fruits mentioned above). quote:Yes, it is balanced. Please submit your version of the diet to the nutrient calculator: http://www.3.waisays.com/calculator.html quote:ehhrrr, but, Creamy, this list (the #fruit part) only contains fruits and veggies. If you take a further look at the rest of the page, you see all the high-phosphorus foods listed. Here's a list where you can see how high the phosphorus contents of milk are relative to that of some other foods: 662 Linseed 674 Brazil nut 618 Sunflower seed 607 Oriental sesame 590 Egg yolk 550 Soya bean 480 Goa bean 454 Almond 426 White beans 411 Lentil 409 Cowpea 409 Walnut 407 Chick pea 391 Rolled oats 373 Cashew nut 353 Lima bean 341 Wheat 341 Peanut 333 Hazelnut 325 Rice 266 Salmon 194 Beef 125 Mushroom 110 Raisins 108 Dried fig 97 Tofu 94 Coconut 92 Milk 82 Broccoli 55 Spinach 38 Avocado 35 Carrot 28 Banana 23 Orange And... milk contains even more calcium than phosphorus. quote:If that where the cause of osteoporosis, hip fracture incidence would be highest in those countries with the lowest average bone mineral density, while the OPPOSITE is true. What i'm pointing at, is that hip fracture incidence is highest in those countries where most calcium is absorbed into the bones; in countries where the bone mass is the greatest. This PROVES that osteoporosis is not due to too low blood calcium levels. quote:That is not true. All scientific research shows that in countries where most milk is consumed, the average bone mass is greatest. The calcium is absorbed perfectly. What causes osteoporosis, is the exhaustion of those cells (osteoblasts) that need to compose bone matrix upon which the calcium can precipitate. This exhaustion is caused by the life-time overstimulation of osteoblasts, due to a life time high calcium intake. Check out this site for a full explanation and all the scientific references. |
| creamy_avocado 11-18-2002 04:06 PM | Thanks RRM! THAT was the kind of post I was looking for |
| jhontry 03-04-2003 01:38 PM | i am 16, 5'8ft, 145 lbs could you give me a list of food which give me the daily calcium i need? by the way, i think is too hard to find a fresh, perfect egg yolk anywhere, any tips? thanks |
| Wai 03-04-2003 01:39 PM | quote:the funny thing is that, whatever diet you follow, you will ingest enough calcium. that is why young people in all countries in the world develop strong bones, regardless of their diet; any diet obviously supplies us with enough calcium to groiw strong bones. The reason why it is officially advised to consume much more calcium, because it is thought that this may prevent a bone disease called osteoporosis. However, in those countries where most calcium is consumed, the more people suffer from osteoporosis. for an explanation, check out this site. quote:please check out the forum about fish and egg yolks... |